Hopbot log for 2007-11-23 - Helma IRC channel: #helma on irc.freenode.net

2007-11-23:

[12:28] <bslivka> Php is pretty rubbish, but it's got a lot going for it.
[12:28] <bslivka> garbage can be pretty useful.
[12:28] <bslivka> English is a garbage language.
[12:29] <zumbrunn> the art of recycling
[12:30] <bslivka> it lacks the pretence of being well designed, and to a certain extent is less imposing as a result.
[12:30] <zumbrunn> English?
[12:31] <bslivka> PHP, I suppose. I'm thinking out loud again
[12:31] <bslivka> sometimes it does not make sense
[12:31] <zumbrunn> just pulling you leg
[12:31] <bslivka> The sheer size of english makes it imposing, of course
[12:31] <zumbrunn> *your leg*
[12:31] <bslivka> very difficult to learn language
[12:32] <bslivka> not that I'd know, or anything.
[12:32] <bslivka> and even if you know english really well, you can still mess up. Hehe
[12:34] <bslivka> I got the applescript/helma thing working pretty damn well thanks to the helma-user list
[12:34] <bslivka> Still a few bugs, but they're bugs in apple's stuff, not helma's
[12:34] <bslivka> and they can be worked around
[12:36] <drbobb> Php is gawdawful
[12:36] <drbobb> full of gotchas at every point
[12:36] <bslivka> When someone says something like that, it's usually because of some frustrating project that either never got off the ground, or was very difficult
[12:37] <bslivka> or maybe I'm just mind reading
[12:37] <drbobb> ..or needs to extend someone else's huge convoluted code
[12:39] <bslivka> I'm finding that developing applications with helma is certainly a lot faster than php
[12:40] <bslivka> I couldn't pinpoint exactly why though. it just seems like things just need less code
[12:41] <bslivka> I suppose I'm saving a lot on SQL queries
[12:44] <bslivka> But between the two I would say PHP is easier to learn, since PHP is basically just an overblown templating system
[12:45] <drbobb> who's development got a little out of control
[12:45] <drbobb> and now it pretends to be a programming language
[12:46] <bslivka> the code part took over the templating part.
[12:47] <bslivka> It's hilarious how you still have to start every program with a <?php though
[12:47] <bslivka> and end it with ?>
[12:48] <drbobb> php may be easy to learn, it's hard to use it well though
[12:48] <bslivka> That's basically php in a nutshell
[12:48] <drbobb> unnecessarily hard, i should add
[12:49] <bslivka> It is a language that encourages poor practice through its design
[12:50] <drbobb> too many inconsistencies and weird misfeatures, confusing poorly designed apis, and so on
[12:50] <bslivka> but if you need to knock together a couple dynamic pages, and don't really need to make an application as such, php is great
[12:52] <drbobb> http://mmondor.pulsar-zone.net/index.html
[12:52] <drbobb> for anyone interested in little-known applications of javascript
[12:52] <bslivka> Though one of the funniest things about PHP is its similarity (but distinct differences) from javascript
[12:53] <bslivka> which leads to lots of mistakes if you're trying to write in both on the same project
[12:55] <bslivka> have you seen POW?
[13:00] <drbobb> POW?
[13:01] <bslivka> it's a webserver written inside a firefox plugin
[13:01] <drbobb> nope, haven't looked at it
[13:01] <drbobb> what would it be good for?
[13:01] <bslivka> in javascript- of course- and with a serverside javascript language
[13:02] <bslivka> somewhat similar in design to php
[13:02] <bslivka> with the <?sjs tags and such
[13:03] <bslivka> It's mainly good for setting up a quick webserver for sharing things like photos with friends
[13:03] <drbobb> so i expect it only runs while firefox is running?
[13:04] <bslivka> the javascript also has access to other firefox settings, like bookmarks
[13:04] <bslivka> That's right- but you can also run it on xulrunner
[13:04] <bslivka> or from a USB key
[13:04] <drbobb> oh that begins to make it interesting
[13:05] <drbobb> on a client machine where you run firefox, you're usually firewalled anyway
[13:06] <bslivka> really most of the point of it is to have small webapps for the client machine to use
[13:06] <bslivka> for instance, making special webpages based on firefox history, and such
[13:07] <drbobb> once you bother to make a webapp, pretty soon you'll want to be able to access it remotely
[13:08] <bslivka> well yeah- I suppose POW hasn't been amazing enough to get me to program anything for it.
[13:08] <bslivka> but it's an interesting tech demo nonetheless
[13:08] <bslivka> similar to google gears
[13:14] <bslivka> My brain just popped : http://nestedvm.ibex.org/
[13:14] <drbobb> i'd like to figure out how best to use e4x for templating
[13:14] <drbobb> when i find some time, yeah
[13:14] <bslivka> I might just be a sore goat, but I don't like e4x, not at all.
[13:15] <drbobb> oh yeah that link
[13:15] <bslivka> But using it for templating is pretty dead simple
[13:15] <drbobb> i recall actually using it, to run sqlite from java iirc
[13:16] <bslivka> sqlite in java! now there's something useful
[13:16] <drbobb> ended up deciding to use something else though
[13:16] <drbobb> but yeah it actually did work
[13:17] <drbobb> if you want an embedded sql db in java, h2 seems to be pretty good
[13:18] <bslivka> yeah, my boss wrote an article on how to use that with helma
[13:19] <drbobb> it still has some issues with large datasets
[13:19] <drbobb> but development seems to be going pretty fast
[13:20] <drbobb> making good progress, i mean
[13:21] <drbobb> currently i'm using luciddb for some data analysis work
[13:21] <drbobb> coupled to java & rhino
[13:21] <drbobb> it's pretty good at querying large datasets
[13:22] <bslivka> does it use SQL?
[13:22] <drbobb> yes
[13:22] <bslivka> damn
[13:22] <drbobb> and does work in embedded mode
[13:23] <drbobb> very fast queries, slow inserts, poor support for updates
[13:23] <drbobb> no transactions
[13:25] <drbobb> SQL (subset) and JDBC
[13:26] <bslivka> SQL is bad
[13:26] <drbobb> depends on what you want to do
[13:26] <drbobb> for my purposes it's just fine
[13:27] <bslivka> SQL is garbage in the same way that PHP is, really.
[13:27] <bslivka> If all you need to do is toss together a few dynamic queries it's great
[13:27] <bslivka> as soon as you want to make an application..
[13:27] <bslivka> well it encourages bad practice
[13:27] <bslivka> And good practice is insanely difficult to accomplish in it
[13:28] <drbobb> then point out a viable alternative
[13:28] <bslivka> there isn't one, that's what sucks most about SQL
[13:28] <bslivka> Well there is---
[13:29] <bslivka> but it's kind of like how ubuntu is a viable alternative
[13:29] <drbobb> couchdb might turn out to be one, some day
[13:29] <drbobb> but only for a restricted app domain
[13:30] <bslivka> I would say that the relational model is the viable alternative to SQL
[13:31] <bslivka> just anything that used the relational model really
[13:31] <bslivka> revels in it.
[13:31] <bslivka> most importantly, fully implements it
[13:32] <drbobb> sql approximates the relational model not too badly
[13:32] <bslivka> nah, it's pretty bad
[13:32] <drbobb> it has its warts, but at least they are well known
[13:33] <drbobb> bbl
[13:33] <bslivka> righto I gotta go to bed anyway
[13:33] <bslivka> nice talkin to yah

 

 

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